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Napisano 18 kwiecień 2018 - 15:00
HOW MANY BODIES DIED ON KHOLAT SYAKHL 9 OR 11?
Dyatlov junkies that can't read the materials in Russian and can't make their way through the woodpeckers (Dyatlov group), pancakes (Blinov), smoker (Kourikov), Queen (Korolev), Honey expert (Med. expert) and one man that constantly raise from the dead (Vozrozhdenny), still ask and with a reason, for opinion on sources that are incomprehensible.
I am taking the time to translate humanly the documents so we don't end with narration but encourage everybody to form an opinion.
Until we find a new way of looking at this case, we can repeat till we turn blue what has been already said to no avail.
And you can't convince people in your point of view, they need to have a personal access and reading of the facts.
If we can speak of facts on this case at all.
So here is the famous interview that prompted the question how many bodies were brought for autopsy.
You will find links to 2 more related interviews - with Prudkova and Taranova, and the 2 letters Solters wrote to Yudin.
You read it and let me know what you think.
My next publication will be of another sighting of unaccounted corpse of a girl with long dark hair next to the tent.
She seems to reappear.
© NGO "INTERNET CENTER of the Dyatlov group tragedy", 2008.
The text of the conversation of the "Center for Civil Investigation of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy" (NAVIG, Verden), Tuapse and others with the former nurse N-240 in 1959 Solter Pelageya Ivanovna and Victor Konstantinovich on the case of Dyatlov Pass incident 04-05 July 2008
The text is based on a video of the conversation.
Copyright for sound recording and this text have:
Center for Civil Investigation of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy and Tuapse.
The text is recorded and edited by Verden, NAVIG and Tuapse.
* Clicking on an image will bring up the original photo
- 1 -
NAVIG: What Pelageya Ivanovna will say will be filmed on video so it can serve in court as an evidence.
VK: This is a case that even parents still do not know how their children died. There are many contradictions ...
NAVIG: You lived there at this time?
VK: The administration was very strange at that time. I lived in Ivdel and worked in the establishment of the H-240.
NAVIG: In what capacity?
VK: I was later a senior engineer, and before that, in the 59th, I was the inspector of the State ... Soyuzgosles Inspectorate. I was in charge of logging, procurers, consumers ...
NAVIG: Did you know the Mansi? Kurikov, Anyamov?
VK: I did not know them in person. Saw them in the press, in the local newspaper, and in the city... I am familiar with the life of Mansi to some extent. I myself am a mushroom picker, in these areas where the mountains begin, between Ivdel and Polunochnoe, there is a road to these mountains to the north ...
PI: This is where you come from? (photos on the table are brought by the Center)
NAVIG: Yudin gave us this... Is this you in the photo?
Pelageya Ivanovna Solter
VK: We can give you a lot of medical photos. She was the Head nurse of the surgical department.
VK: Yes, Prudkova. Prudkov was a surgeon ...
TUAPSE: Civilian or military?
VK: He was famous, very conscientious, hardworking, accepted people ...
PI: Such a good man! And I worked with him.
VERDEN (asks again): Was he a military surgeon or civilian?
VK: He was a certified?
TUAPSE: What is "certified"?
VK: "Certified" means doctors who worked in the institution, in the camp area - the hospital was full, there was a staff ... Then they started to certify, there are all surgeons and nurses ...
TUAPSE: Was the hospital civil or a military department ?
VK: No, it was special, for the establishment of the N-240 Ministry of the Interior of the USSR. The Ministry of Internal Affairs had great power at that time.
NAVIG: It used to be Ivdellag.
VK: They did not even submit to the hill, but to the camp management, well, to some extent, the KGB.
NAVIG: KGB directly?
VK: No, the Ministry of Internal Affairs
NAVIG: In the year 59, I was transferred to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and before that it was Ivdellag ...
NAVIG: We want Pelageya Ivanovna to tell us about the Dyatlov group. What happened, in what order, how did it worked back then.
TUAPSE: Maybe you will tell, how did you get to know them? Did you ever meet them?
VK: You know, she can be mistaken, her memory is not the same ... But I remember them. We lived near the Headquarters. And there was a bus station. When I went to work, there were all these tourists who came there and waited the bus with their backpacks, 5 or 10 at a time. That's where she saw them.
NAVIG: Here they are, 9 people. Do you remember anyone? (a photo)
VK: No, she was not know them in person.
PI: Did they all die? Well, you say "you don't remember" ... We were called with Prudkov. I washed, and Prudkov helped the bodies to be dress ... Then they took them to the car and drove them to the airfield. And they were sent directly to Sverdlovsk in coffins. And they were buried in Sverdlovsk. Without relatives.
NAVIG: Was there an autopsy?
PI: Prudkov only examined, described. I washed them, wiped them ...
- 2 -
VK: Allow me? The fact is that according to Matveeva's book the autopsy was done in Ivdel. She says that the autopsy was not done in Ivdel. It was a preliminary preparation for them, probably for an autopsy ... And the autopsy was done somewhere else, it was not known where. Or maybe in the city hospital ...
PI: No, they did not do it in the city. They were sent to Sverdlovsk by airplanes.
VK: No, it wasn't in Sverdlovsk, according to the book that they did it in Ivdel.
PI: We washed them here ...
NAVIG: Pelageya Ivanovna ...
TUAPSE: And how do you know that they were sent to Sverdlovsk then?
VK: Yes, because she thinks that it was all ...
NAVIG: Pelageya Ivanovna, do you remember their external appearance? Look, here is what they looked like in the morgue N-240. Were they like that? Do you remember?
PI: I can't recognize them, of course.
TUAPSE: How about the degree of decomposition?
NAVIG: Or is it not them?
VERDEN: Are these them? Did you see them? Did you wash them off? You washed them in this way?
PI: We washed them in the morgue ...
NAVIG: No, but their appearance? Is this the Dyatlov group ...
VERDEN: Did they look like this? Did they?
VK: These was them. Only she says that they were very dirty.
VERDEN: You see here, there is great damage, there is no face ...
NAVIG: Well, they were found in a creek, they were brought like that...
PI: Prudkov described them.
NAVIG: Nothing is mentioned about this in the case files.
VK: I read about Vozrozhdenny ...
PI: Prudkov described them, washed them and put them in coffins. Then they were send on an airplane to Sverdlovsk where they were buried.
VK: Listen, and why there is no signature of the second surgeon, German surname ...
NAVIG: Yes, there isn't. Was he there?
VK: I do not know, Matveeva writes ...
NAVIG: And was Ganz with Prudkov? Pelageya Ivanovna, did you know him?
VK: They didn't know. They didn't know Vozrozhdenny either. They just prepared and they wre taken away ... Where were they taken? Maybe they were taken to the city hospital. Maybe they took them somewhere else ...
NAVIG: Victor Konstantinovich, we assume that there were two groups of bodies, and they did not know each other. This is what we trying to find out. Did you work with the Dyatlov group or the other people? And who did Ganz and Vozrozhdenny perform autopsies on?
PI: We did not do autopsy on anyone.
NAVIG: No one? But the act is, which was opened in the N-240, Vozrozhdenny and Ivanov - the investigator ...
PI: We did not do autopsies on anyone. Prudkov only examined, described, I washed them all ...
NAVIG: Were they wearing clothes?
PI: They were wearing clothes. They were very dirty.
NAVIG: And here you write that there were two girls and one guy ... So were there two girls?
PI: One girl was found with the guys, and the second girl was found after 2 or 3 days.
NAVIG: Or a month?
VK: Month! No, I said "two days"?
NAVIG: Months or a days? This is very important.
PI: Month ... no.
NAVIG: No? And they were found in early May, and those at the end of February. So were they brought all together or at different times?
PI: One girl was found right away, and the second girl was found later.
NAVIG: So you and Prudkov were repeatedly summoned? Have you been called twice or just once?
PI: We were called out with Prudkov - as soon as they were brought, they call us immediately.
- 3 -
NAVIG: They were frozen, the bodies? Frozen?
VK: I saw 5 bodies being brought. In Ivdel. I saw them in front of the morgue, in the car. Brought apparently from the airport. I saw how they were unloaded. I didn't go close, but I just know that they were frozen in different poses, wrapped in blankets ... I think they were blue blankets.
NAVIG: That's the way ... Here they are photographed on the pass, in the snow.
NAVIG: And the bodies, were they thawed?
PI: They were brought and put in a morgue.
NAVIG: But they probably had to be thawed somehow?
VK: Well, I saw that the hands even here were like (pose), and remained ... 5 people.
VERDEN: How did they wash it at the same time? They were defrosted first?
VK: Of course. Laid down, defrosted probably ...
PI: Thawed. In the morgue, everything ...
NAVIG: And how much time did they thaw?
VK: We did not deal with these details. I only know about the situation in the city. If they were autopsied in Ivdel, we would have know about it.
NAVIG: What did they do with their clothes?
VK: Well, ... They could have burned them, throw in the furnace and burn it. Moreover, they also had radiation on their clothes. Although they lay in the water ...
NAVIG: And the first group?
VK: Yes, I again read this from the book, that she (Matveeva) there leads the facts. An autopsy, it also describes everything.
VERDEN: Do you remember what were they dressed in (after being washing)? What were the clothes?
PI: We had to buy the clothes. There were no relatives ...
VK: Look, the first group did not even have any damage, and the second one had all the ribs broken. Who could casue these injuries on them? For this type of injuries, it should be ...
TUAPSE: And who discovered that the ribs were broken? Or did you read this in the book?
VK: Yes, we learned this from the reports. This can only be determined with an autopsy.
NAVIG: And besides Prudkov, who else was there?
PI: There was no one, he was alone there.
NAVIG: You were unsupervised, there was no guard?
PI: No, there was only Prudkov and that's all.
NAVIG: And who was on the washing? You, Yosif Davydovich ... who else?
PI: No one else.
NAVIG: Was the morgue guarded?
PI: No, there was no one.
VK: And there were no orderlies who were washing?
PI: I washed them.
NAVIG: And their appearance? What did the bodies look like?
PI: Of course, if I immediately wrote everything down, but now ...
VERDEN: Are the bodies were they well preserved?
PI: Well, they were in one piece. One had a head wound, a crack in his head, but they were all in one piece, not injured.
VK: The group found in teh spring, they were decayed. The second party.
VERDEN: How many bodies were there? How much do you remember?
PI: I remember that the first time they brought six people. And first one girl, and the second girl was later found ...
NAVIG: Did you know Korotaev? This is an investigator, he worked in the Ivdel Prosecutor's Office.
PI: I do not remember who he was...
VK: I know who is he.
NAVIG: Korotaev wrote that he assisted Ganz and Vozrozhdenny in Ivdel with teh autopsies, that he packed the organs for analysis. In Ivdel.
VK: Could be.
NAVIG: I have his story. He personally told me this.
VK: In each autopsy report it says in which hospital or morgue it was performed ...
NAVIG: In the morgue of H-240 ...
- 4 -
VK: Maybe it was done at night, and they just prepared them ...
VERDEN: So, they apparently had the impression that the corpses would be sent, but in fact the corpses were not sent? Maybe that was it?
VK: That's right. They said so and probably ... Because there is everywhere a veil of mystery, some haste ...
PI: These corpses were later put in coffins and sent by plane to the cemetery in Sverdlovsk. And there they were buried.
VERDEN: Did you see how they were put in coffins?
PI: Of course. We dressed them and laid them down. Clean.
VK: If there was some sort of collusion or some kind of pressure, no one could tell them where the corpses were actually sent. Here they prepared them, and at night in the same morgue they did an autopsy. And that's all they were told. End of conversation.
TUAPSE: Thsi is not likely, because it says here that the autopsy was performed in daylight.
VK: "In daylight" who wrote this?
NAVIG: Investigator Ivanov and expert Vozrozhdenny. And the expert criminalist Churkinа.
NAVIG: They couldn't have been prepared. Bodies can not be washed before examination. They should be in the clothes in which they were found.
TUAPSE: The bodies were not prepared, they were in the clothes in which they were found.
NAVIG: They (the experts) undressed them themselves. "The corpse lies, dressed in a hat, in a mask" ... Before the examination they can not be undressed... Or maybe they made a synthesis?
VK: I am telling you, there was some sort of undressing. They simply cut all the clothes with knives, to remove them faster... I know that they were buying suits in Ivdel.
PI: All the clothes were dirty, everything was dirty, everything was removed from them ... Clothes were bought.
VERDEN: This is the second evidence that clothes were bought in Ivdel.
PI: Clothes were bought and they were laid in coffins ...
NAVIG: Did you see it yourself?
PI: Yes. Went to the coffins at once. Coffins brought ...
NAVIG: And who was lying down?
PI: ... The coffins were sent to Sverdlovsk.
NAVIG: Did you give a non-disclosure statement?
PI: Prudkov was doing all this.
NAVIG: We talked with his wife, Valentina Ivanovna. Did you know her?
PI: Yes, I did.
NAVIG: And she says she did not know you.
PI: She doesn't?
NAVIG: Were you called Maria?
VK: She may not know Prudkov's wife. How do you know her?
PI: Well, why wouldn't I know her? She is a teacher...
VERDEN: No, she's a pediatrician.
NAVIG: It is not her then.
VERDEN: No, that one. She called her "Valentina Ivanovna" ...
NAVIG: I told her that.
VERDEN: No, she called her even at the very beginning of the conversation, and I wrote down to clarify everything later.
NAVIG: Let him repeat it again.
VERDEN: What was the name of Prudkov's wife?
PI: Valentina Ivanovna.
NAVIG: A teacher?
VERDEN: She says she's a teacher. A pediatrician and children's teacher are somewhat similar: working with children
NAVIG: Do you have a pictures of Prudkova? The medical department there, its kind ...
VK: There are photos, I can bring you ...
- 5 -
NAVIG: Your name is Pelageya, right? And why are you sometimes called Maria?
PI: I am Pelageya, but some have addressed and called me Maria.
VK: But according to the documents Pelageya Ivanovna.
NAVIG: Pelageya Ivanovna, and on what operations did you usually assist Prudkov?
PI: Yes, all operations. Who was brought, all were operated on...
NAVIG: Did you know the instruments you handed to him?
PI: I boiled the instruments that were used in operateds.
NAVIG: Did you know the names of the instruments?
PI: Scalpel, then clamps ... there were clamps and bent tips...
TUAPSE: And Prudkov, did he perform autopsies?
PI: Of course. He was a very smart doctor.
PI: So the autopsy were perfomed in the morgue ...
VERDEN: So, he operated on living and dead people? Corpses?
PI: Yes, he did everything there, he was in charge ...
VERDEN: Maybe because it was the zone? ...
VK: I know that there was better pay for autopsies. In my opinion, Sharonin did all the autopsies.
PI: Sharonin came in the picture later ...
NAVIG: We have a letter ... Pelageya Ivanovna, you wrote to Yudin ...
VK: I wrote this.
NAVIG: No, you wrote the second letter, and the first one she wrote. Pelageya Ivanovna, you wrote in it that when they were brought they looked like dead. What does it mean?
VERDEN: "At first they brought three, two girls and one guy. Their faces were like those of the dead. "
NAVIG: What does that mean? They were brought dead, not alive? Why did you write that?
PI: No, they did not bring them alive, they brought them dead ...
NAVIG: So you wrote it right? All correct?
PI: Of course.
NAVIG: This was written in 2000 when you remembered everything.
VERDEN: You wrote further: "At one girl the hair from one side was charred, on one arm the sleeve slightly burnt ...". Do you remember these corpses? Were they burnt?
PI: Yes, they were burnt. You know, they were very dirty.
NAVIG: Where would the mud come in winter. Those were the ones in spring, probably ...
PI: If I knew that you would ask, I would have written everything down ...
VERDEN: And where were the documents kept, Prudkov files? Where can they be?
VK: Well, she's a nurse ... If they were in the hospital, they would be in the Headquarters office ...
PI: In Sverdlovsk. Everything is in Sverdlovsk ...
VK: There is a special department in that institution, which keeps all sorts of tricks ...
NAVIG: We have now sent an official request to Ivdel. We sent it to the Headquarters of the correctional penal system, and they sent it to Ivdel. In Sverdlovsk there are no documents on the Dyatlov group.
VK: In Ivdel this institution is now closed. It is suspended. In Ivdel, there are now 7 or 8 colonies and each colony, it ... But all the archives from the Main Directorate that was in Ivdel is stored somewhere ...
PI: Main Directorate archives, you can still apply in Ivdel.
NAVIG: Well, they sent the request to Ivdel, but the answer has not come yet.
NAVIG: That's how you remember them? This one is in his clothes ...
VK: Well, how can one remember, they look different here ... Let me see ...
NAVIG: They are already thawed here. Lie normally ...
VK: Is this the first group or the second?
NAVIG: The second.
NAVIG: Do you remember how they were brought? Did you see them?
VK: I did not see the second group. I went to business trips often. But on the first groupf I just came across ...
TUAPSE: And when was that - the first group. What time?
VK: Well, they were also brought to the N-240. And there the surgical department and I went to the procedures. I saw that the car was standing and unloaded ...
- 6 -
TUAPSE: It was in March, or in February, you do not remember?
VK: It was probably early March.
TUAPSE: And did you write this letter?
PI: And does Prudkov's wife live in Sverdlovsk?
NAVIG: Yes, we talked with her. She said that her husband did not tell anything at home that they were not allowed to tell.
VERDEN: How did the bodies thaw? Did they just lay and thaw?
PI: They just lay there ...
VERDEN: How long? How many days does it take to thaw a body?
PI: Well, a week, probably / they were lying ... They were all frozen.
NAVIG: 49 years have passed, but no one knows why they died.
VK: This is a cruel case. Nobody knows ... And agree, but it is not only my opinion: people, could have even blinded them, could be explosion of some sort ... the thing is that they started to choke, there was not enough oxygen to breathe. And in their fever they ran down, everybody in same direction ... And then, down below, there was more oxygen, they began to breathe, and so on ... But why did not they have enough strength to stick together? If you are going to die, so be it, but why in this manner, some here, another there, by the stream, almost half kilometer away ... Why did they split? You can imagine that there was, for example, 27 degrees below ... and they were barefoot. How did they manage to move? Dyatlov himself, you could tell it was him, holding on to that birch, trying to go back to the tent, because there was their salvation, there was alcohol, clothes ... Maybe they even use psychotropic weapon on them.
PI: They said there was a fireball ...
VK: It was later, it was said there ... I personally often saw in the evenings in this region some kind of firebolts ...
NAVIG: Far away?
VK: Well, there, in the Ural Mountains. Ivdel is higher and the Ural Mountains are close by... In that area.
NAVIG: What year? About? Before?
VK: Yes, and before that, and after I saw.
NAVIG: What was the situation in Ivdel when they were found? Do you remember? Was there a lot of military, special communication? Did the generals come?
NAVIG: Shtrauh wrote that they came. Do you know Shtrauh?
VK: Shtrauh I know.
NAVIG: He said that there was special communication, telegraph pole were installed, the generals were walking about ...
VK: Maybe there was something like that, but I do not know anything about it. I know that there was a military unit that guarded the institution, the camps. There was the regiment, or in my opinion, even a division... And so maybe some generals ... Well, the colonels were of internal troops.
NAVIG: So you have not seen them?
VK: I did not see it.
NAVIG: A Shtrauh says that he saw.
VK: Well, Shtrauh is an intelligent man, a correspondent of a newspaper, he could have known more.
NAVIG: Did you know Solomonovich?
VK: Felix Yakovlevich? But what about.
NAVIG: We spoke with him recently. He had there, by the way, his wife was also present. She worked somewhere in the office.
VK: We worked together with Solomonovich, in one department, he was a lieutenant colonel.
NAVIG: Solomonovich says that the autopsy was done in the zone and sent to Sverdlovsk.
VK: Did he say that? Well, so they did. And, you see, she (Pelageya Ivanovna) was told that they were taken on planes to Sverdlovsk.
VERDEN: She might not know the fate of the bodies, she just did some specific task ...
- 7 -
Pelageya Ivanovna Solter
VK: There's a hospital in the zone, all the contingent was treated in it ... in the zone ... there is surgery ...
NAVIG: A where is the morgue?
VK: A morgue beyond the pre-ice zone.
VERDEN: Pelageya Ivanovna, do you remember if all the corpses were dirty? All nine?
PI: All dirty, everyone was washed ...
NAVIG: So the morgue was outside the zone?
VK: This morgue was in the hospital. There, in the town, we had a therapeutic department, the brick building was good, good doctors.
NAVIG: Was it beyond the zone? And what was in the zone then? Was there a morgue?
VK: I do not remember where the morgue was ... there were no cons here ... There was a small morgue, and the next day the prisoners were taken out and buried ...
NAVIG: The autopsy was done in the zone morgue ...
NAVIG: So, has Prudkov been called to the civil morgue or to the camp morgue?
VK: In the civil, I know for sure.
VERDEN: Did Prudkov inspect the civilian morgue?
VK: N-240 is in the hospital, and the camp hospital is separate, in the camp zone.
PI: He worked in the hospital, and the morgue was from the hospital.
VK: They sent these bodies to Prudkov to prepared ...
NAVIG: In the civilian?
VK: Yes, they made a description there ...
NAVIG: I have to clarify, they worked all in what hospital, in the territory of the zone or in civilian?
VERDEN: Pelageya Ivanovna, did you work in the morgue with Prudkov on the territory of the zone or on the territory of the hospital?
PI: On the territory of the zone.
VK: What zone?!
PI: Well, I went into the hospital in the zone... With Prudkov.
VK: What kind of zone? You and Prudkov worked in the morgue in the zone. What morgue is there in the zone?
NAVIG: Behind the barbed wire?
VK: Let's determine what "in the zone" means!
NAVIG: Yes, let's ...
VK: There was a contingent there, tens of thousand of people, you have to treat them. There was Four, it was in the city, very close to Headquarters.
NAVIG: What is Four?
NAVIG: Management? Zone - Four?
VK: The zone of the Four, in this Four there was a hospital for the convicts specially, from all the colonies were brought and treated. There is surgery and operations were performed, well, everything ..., and there were many doctors. And there were good specialists, because ...
PI: Well, maybe there's still someone left.
VK: They paid more than in the civil.
NAVIG: In the zone?
VK: In the zone, yes, they paid more. And here, beyond the zone, there was surgery, too, there was hospital , the clinic was separate. It was for civilian contingent only. Well, the personnel who worked at the N-240.
NAVIG: It was for them, yes?
TUAPSE: For civilians?
NAVIG: Did you go out of the population? No?
NAVIG: That is for civilian personnel.
VK: There was a central hospital for Ivdel's population. It is still there. It's a special hospital, you see, they even had a slightly higher salary.
NAVIG: No, I see. Well, what about the barbed wire, the area was surrounded by a wire? Was there a passing mode?
- 8 -
VK: Sure. There were the barracks where the condemned lived.
NAVIG: So, this hospital was behind this zone?
VK: It was in this Zone, but it was still fenced off separately.
TUAPSE: Do we understand correctly that there was a hospital for prisoners separately, separately for the personnel who worked in the Zone and separately for civilians and residents of Ivdel?
VK: This is what I am explaining.
TUAPSE: We have three hospitals?
VK: Yes, there were three hospitals. Convicts were treated, and specially, and this structure is still in the medical institutions of the Ministry of Justice. But, given that now the Colonies have autonomy, the Headquarters reduced it, so they left the medicine and left the clinic. They didn't even abandon all branches
PI: And Prudkov's wife is she still alive? Does she live in Ivdel?
VERDEN: No, in Sverdlovsk.
PI: Does she live in Sverdlovsk? And the sons are they both surgeons?
NAVIG: One is Chief surgeon of the Urals Federal District, Mikhail. And this one - he is the Head of the department of the Sverdlovsk administration.
VK: Are these the sons of Prudkov?
NAVIG: Yes. Alexander, he will be the shorter.
VK: Here she was in the hospital, in the 40th or in some kind of place she was lying. There, her son even attending her. The son, I do not know, was he a surgeon?
VERDEN: In the 40th hospital of what city?
VK: In Sverdlovsk. She (Pelageya Ivanovna) got in the hospital with stones. And I went there, and even lived in the hospital for 2-3 days, I slept in the corridor on a couch.
PI: Prudkov son operated on me. Got out the stones from my kidney.
VERDEN: So you know him well?
PI: Yes. Acquaintances. Still, you know, they will come: "Call dad." They will come in surgery for free oepartion.
VK: Do you want a graphic plan for the hospital?
NAVIG: Where is the barbed wire, where was the pass?
VK: Give me that. I will ...
NAVIG: Because we do not understand.
VK: This is town. City of Ivdel, it is mostly down, around, on both sides is Ivdel river. This is Ivdel river. Here is the road to Gorodok (small city - ed. note). Here is Gorodok.
VERDEN: You do not know what happened to Yudin during the hike, why did he leave the trek?
PI: I do not know.
VERDEN: They did some kind of operation on him? Did you attend an operation of appendicitis? Did Prudkov operated him in the city? Was he operated on?
NAVIG: The letter says he was.
VERDEN: Do you remember Yudin? Do you know who Yudin is? It was the tenth tourist who did not go to the mountains. You wrote him a letter ....
PI: Well, I wrote, but I already forgot.
VK: There's a road here, near the road are the Headquarters. Here, from the Headquarters, the road goes to Vizhay. Right here opposite the polyclinic is a civil office.
TUAPSE: Was it all open to access?
VK: It's civil, it's open. This is the Zone.
NAVIG: Write there "Zone".
VK: Zone. The H-240 was then the Four.
- 9 -
NAVIG: Was theре wire there, barb wire?
VK: Sure thing. A double fence even.
NAVIG: There were cons in general.
VK: So the zone, there was inner fence, and one outside.
VK: There was third zone on the street.
NAVIG: You mean, one more fence?
VK: Fence. There was a watch, too. And here is where the hospital was. I think there were several rooms there.
VERDEN: Have you ever been to the territory of the Zone?
VK: But what about. And not once was. Went there. There, Popov Alexander Ivanovich is still working, doing X-rays. Radiologist. He is still working, his wife passed away, also a doctor. And in the Zone there are barracks, messroom, surgery, therapy. In Gorodok here, I abbreviated it, also residential buildings, polyclinic, there was a hotel and so on. Here, too, there was a civilian surgery, and a polyclinic for all those who worked in the institution. This is surgery.
NAVIG: Is it a road?
VK: It's the road from the river, Ivdel river. On the right side here is the city, and here it is all city.
TUAPSE: And this clinic for those who are in the Headquarters?
VK: Management, who works in institutions, Colony on Vizhay ...
NAVIG: Was there barbed wire here?
VK: No, why? It's civil ..
NAVIG: But they did not treat civilians?
VK: They treated civilians related to the work.
NAVIG: But not if you are kolhoznik.
VK: The city residents were treated in the city hospital. And here - only the people from the system of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Those who worked in the colonies, on the field ..., there was a whole system.
VK: Right here at the polyclinic, in the same district, here is the morgue. Here is how the road goes, the paths ... And this is the morgue, and this is the Institutions. Here is this hospital, civil, morgue. If the morgue was there it was also for the convicted.
NAVIG: Yes, there was a morgue in the zone?
VK: They were not kept there for a long time.
NAVIG: Well, was there a morgue there?
VK: Well, I guess there was.
NAVIG: No, well, because it says here, in the morgue of the H-240 autopsy was performed. Washed in same morgue.
- 10 -
TUAPSE: And this system belongs to H-240?
VK: You know, well, some logic, there should be some logic in all this ...
NAVIG: The report is there, see? They will not lie, it's a document.
VK: Wait, there should be some logic, I reckon. Why do it, you know, in the morgue, there are no conditions for perfom surgical operation. When next to it, you know, there is a surgical department in the zone. At night, take them there, do an autopsy, take them out. Where, no one will know. Or do ... well, it's unlikely, it was a fiction, so that someone would do an autopsy in the morgue.
NAVIG: This is a reference to Dyatlov group. We are only talking about Dyatlov group. And why, there is a table and it's done.
VK: So even the same Dyatlov group. Well, you need tables, some instruments.
NAVIG: Well, probably, they brought them there.
VK: If this is what Solomonovich said, maybe he could have known more, then ...
NAVIG: Yes, he does not state any facts, he just said it. You can not confirm anything.
VK: Did you talk to him?
NAVIG: Yes, on the phone. He said the autopsy was done there, but where he got this information is unknown. Yes, no one knows.
VK: I know because I lived there. Well, you know, in the city ..., there was this murmur that people died, that Mansi could have attacked them and so on. So, probably, it went on for a month. Then all this quieted down. But the fact is that if there was an autopsy done, one way or another, I would have known.
NAVIG: Here? (in the zone)
NAVIG: And why would you know? Because your wife worked there?
VK: Yes, I worked too, I was connected with everything, I ...
NAVIG: Did you come here? Did you had access to the zone?
VK: I came here, she worked here. Yes, she then worked in the zone again.
NAVIG: After that?
VK: Yes, she worked there for another 30 years or 40 in the zone.
NAVIG: Well, let's not be particularly interested in this.
VK: And we were good friends, greeted for the holidays and the Day of medicine, in this hospital with all doctors, medical personnel in this hospital, we always gathered in the clinic and spent the evenings.
- 11 -
VK: They were unloaded right here.
NAVIG: Did you see them? They were in what, in coffins or just like that?
VK: No, they were, they were just brought from ...
NAVIG: from the pass.
VK: They were brought from the airfield. And with a car, they are just so, you know, well, frozen, they pull them out, wrapped in blankets. I remember it now, blankets were blue.
NAVIG: In these? They had blankets there, on the Pass. They slept in them.
VK: Well, they could have used the same blankets to transport them. It's not necessarily the same blankets. Or maybe they were theirs.
NAVIG: Did you know Patrushev?
NAVIG: Pilot Patrushev? Gennady.
VK: No, I did not know him. There was a club opposite Dzerzhinsky's club. There were pilots, I knew one there.
NAVIG: There was Gzhatenko, I remember. Helicopter pilot, he died, crashed.
VK: No, he was an old pilot, he flew on these, U-2 or something like that.
VK: AN-2, I knew him. Now, he lived in Ivdel for a long time, even after he had already built a house. He lived there anyway.
VERDEN: But still it's unclear, was there a morgue in the zone?
VK: Well, I do not know where it is located, I just know that there was an solitary near the guardhouse in the corner for the colony. Isolator. That is, if you misbehave they put you in the solitary, from these barracks, there.
NAVIG: And if prisoners die, where did they put them? Did they bring them to this morgue?
VK: I'm telling you, no, how can they be brought in a civilian? No.
TUAPSE: Maybe they had their own (morgue) somewhere?
VK: They had their own, there was a morgue. They must have had, because if a prisoner dies, they keep him for a day or two and then bury. And that's all. Any hospital has a morgue somewhere probably. I can not draw you, I do not know where it was.
NAVIG: Well, it's clear that you didn't see it. Was the territory big?
VK: Well, the zone, I reckon, in meters, probably under 200 - length and width, probably 150 roughly, there was a colony. Well, meters 200-300, yes not 300, and all 400, probably, was. Well, something like this.
NAVIG: And in other places, 41 district, knew this? The Second North. There were also zones there.
VK: I know, the North ...
TUAPSE: What was in the Second North?
VK: So, Second North, now I'll draw. What do I know about the Second North. Well, you know from Ivdel the road went, as you may say ..., to a small town of urban type called "Polunochnoe" ...
NAVIG: Well, it still exists.
VK: Polunochnoe. This is if Ivdel, let's say, from the Institution if you went to the colonies. The road goes like that, and after Polunochnoe, 7 kilometers further along the road is "Taloe". No, it's here, Taloe village is here.
NAVIG: turns to Solter: Did remember anything about Yudin?
VK: So after Polunochnoe First and Second North. The second North is about here. Well, on the road to the village, you know, there is an eating house, we always went there, went to the eating house, bought bread, general store, they had good supplies. The Second North. Here. And then the road went to the village "Shepichnoye", then went on, this is a colony. This is Shepichnoe. The Fourth, the Fifth are districts Colonies were colonies. In my opinion, here was the 7th district, in my opinion. Further Burmantovo, also a large settlement, further this colony was, Vizhay, more colonies, three or four colonies. There were also three or four colonies here. Settlements. Like this.
- 12 -
TUAPSE: And what was in the Second North?
VK: Second North, Second North was that ... They had a big quarry, you know, they got there manganese ore. There were big careers here, you know ...
NAVIG: Were there prisoners there?
VK: No, thеre were not. Here, then the Second North. Here the were the stone mountains, you see. Well, there were rocks, all the dumps, because this is a huge pit, probably a kilometer in diameter, and trucks were moving roundabout here ... And the Second North here was this settlement here. That's the village on this side, all here are houses. Here. Here is the quarry, here was still, you know a workshop, the crushing workshop № ... The workshop crushed the stone. Well, and then from here, probably, from the Second, probably, they went, there the road is there to the ridge.
NAVIG: And where's the 41st site? They went to the 41st after that. What is it?
VK: Well, I do not know.
NAVIG: Logging , probably some kind?
VK: Probably, too, because, you know, they had careers earlier small, probably this was the 41st district.
NAVIG: They reached the Second Northern, and Yudin turned back, and they went into the forest. And Yudin took the stones here. So 41st was here right here?
VK: Maybe there was a quarry here, maybe this one they called, an old abandoned quarry. We went there to pick mushrooms.
VERDEN: What did geologists do there, why did geologists live there? Where were they aniway - on the Second North or on the 41st, where is it?
VK: The Second North is a whole ..., it was a big settlement.
VERDEN: What did geologists do there in the winter?
VK: Well, what did they do? Firstly, they drilled in the winter ...
VERDEN: They drilled in the winter?
VK: Yes. They, for example, in the summer they went to the ridge there. Let's say, here's the Polunochnoe, then the roads to the ridge, everywhere the roads were there.
NAVIG: And what are the cores? You know?
NAVIG: Cores from geologists - what is that? They extract them in the winter for some reason. There is a report from a geologist who went there to take dirt samples and saw strangers on the Pass. So, what are these cores for geologists? Maybe it's an instrument, or something?
VK: A, cores ... I'm telling you again, here they are, they have this road everywhere ..., then the road there, everyone went to the ridge, we went there for mushrooms, we often made our way by car, the ridge was going like that.
NAVIG: The Urals?
VK: The Urals range.
NAVIG: It's called Poyasovoy kamen (means Waistband stone - ed. note)
VK: We went there, and often I, you know, spent the weekend in the woods. I was getting to Polunochnoe, not as far as Taloe, there was the military checkpoint here.
NAVIG: So there were military there?
VK: No. Given that there is a colony here, you see, from the military unit 6602, in my opinion, here it was, the checkpoint here. Then you know what, well, for security reasons, to catch convicts. Little did they make a check in the morning, and he ran away in the afternoon. During this time you could leave by car, and then the cars were checked here. And this checkpoint checked everyone. And here from this checkpoint was the road, there, up. I walked mostly along this road, mountains were already beginning here, I gathered cranberries here on these mountains, at the foothills.
VERDEN: And here was no checkpoint of some kind? There was not any checkpoint on this stretch from the Second North?
VK: Well, here, I'm telling you ...
VERDEN: Here you drew Polunochnoe ...
VK: No, it's not Polunochnoe, for Taloe, it's for Taloe, there can be kilometers, well, from Taloe 6 or 7 kilometers there was a checkpoint.
VERDEN: So there's a checkpoint between Taloe and Polunochnoe here, right?
VERDEN: And here?
VK: And then Taloe, that's why here Taloe is called, there Taloe river flowed. It goes down that way. Maninskoe lake there. Maninskoe lake was big. And this river took from there from the upper reaches and flowed there.
NAVIG: What about the cores, we forgot the cores ...
VK: A, teh cores. You know, they had certain places. Let's say that they are drilling, there is a truck, say, on the road here, and the drilling machine is standing here somewhere. And these are all these, these are those that are extracted from the pipes, they are picked up afterwards, and then they are put here in boxes. In such boxes, let's say, stand here, just like this. These are all the samples from the pipes. Here. They lay here. And then they are taken to certain places, and then they are taken from there, these are the cores that are taken away somewhere.
- 13 -
TUAPSE: And what's the point of bringing them somewhere?
VK: No soil, stones. There and pyrite and all possible minerals. Everything is there. To study, that's here.
VERDEN: So a core is a drill that drills this stone and takes a sample?
VK: Well, you know, this drilling technology must be known. Drilling machine, this is such, maybe 200 meters deep pipes, and the soil at a depth of 200 meters to take a sample. And then they take the whole thing upwards, put it in boxes in certain places, along the road they have warehouses for them. And then they take ...
TUAPSE: Does the box consist of several compartments?
VK: Well, different, there even the date is written, when, what, depth. There, in order to analyze these samples, you need to know where this well is located. It's getting cold, we had a settlement there, there was a geological prospecting expedition, people lived there. And there was a laboratory, I had acquaintances from this laboratory.
VERDEN: Was there a laboratory in the village of Northern?
VK: Not on the North, Second Ivdel, no ..., yes, Second Ivdel, Second Ivdel village.
VERDEN: There was such a settlement there, Ivdel-2? Or was it called Second Ivdel?
VK: Second Ivdel. The first Ivdel, this is when we come to the city, and then if you go 5 kilometers, the is Second North, there is a settlement, a settlement of geologists.
VERDEN: And these core samples they were made in certain places? Or just someone collected them on the road? Was there a truck that picked them up?
VK: They have their own system there, they know where to lay, what, where ... Well, let's say, the drill station is here, they have repository nearby, they cover with felt to prevent moisture from entering there, and there are the boxes ... and in these boxes, there are a lot of them there, probably about 100 pieces out there of these core samples.
NAVIG: Well, they can take them in the winter, right?
VK: In the winter they sometimes lie there in the summer ...
NAVIG: Could that be on the ridge?
VERDEN: How often did they get there?
VK: I went for mushrooms, sometimes I see, I look at this warehouse.
NAVIG: Near the ridge can there be such sample cores?
VK: No, near the ridge ..., and maybe they were.
TUAPSE: How are they going to drive there?
NAVIG: Why drive, they're on foot. They were dropped by a helicopter.
VK: The roads are going around, these are the roads.
TUAPSE: And drilling?
NAVIG: So in the summer they drill, and in the winter he went to take pictures.
VK: Listen, here's what I drew for you, here along this road, here is the Second Northern, in the same place once the establishment of the H-240 chopped down the forest, there are solid roads, the road goes up to the ridge. And the roads are so good that you can go there and geologists get there, drilling works are carried out. Then these stumps, which were harvested by loggers, after 3-4 years or 5 years later, they are hoisted and taken to the city, then unloaded, in my opinion, very good varnishes are made of them and a lot of materials are made. Osmol was called, osmol took care of their own. So there were roads everywhere, there in this area. I heard that there, somewhere in Burmantovo or nearby, that there to the ridge, there seems to be some military unit, a small one.
NAVIG: About Chistop, there is a word going around that there was some kind of radar station or something like that.
VK: Yes-yes-yes, there was.
NAVIG: In the year 59, in my opinion, it was not there.
TUAPSE: At what time was this small unit there?
NAVIG: Was it in 59?
VK: Look, Burmantovo, then we went even further along the road to one mountain, there were another 10-15 kilometers, there was a mountainous area, at the foothills already, and there was such a road, I was thinking, who is this for, such a beautiful road, very well paved. Such a big road, it must have be going somewhere, probably.
NAVIG: What year was this?
VK: Well, that's already, you know, much later.
NAVIG: And this is another question, when the civilians arrived in Ivdel, this was the area of Ivdellag, did they have to registered mandatory? For example, tourists? Or in general, so if I came there, I had to register, right? For the local it is not necessary, but for an outsider?
VK: In the city there is such a situation that tourists who come are obliged to register.
NAVIG: What kind of organization was that, what kind of unit, KGB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs or prison security?
VK: You know, this is just how it was.
NAVIG: No, but what's there a checkpoint where to register?
VERDEN: In the cityhall, in some kind of administration?
VK: Well, that was a problem of teh city.
NAVIG: In the city, right?
VK: In the city, yes. Previously, there was a Part committee. And there even was a representative of the KGB.
NAVIG: And when one leaves, he too must check his registration on the way out, right?
VK: Well, about this registration ...
NAVIG: Yudin says they did not register.
VK: They did not register.
NAVIG: Because otherwise he had to withdraw from the registration when he went back.
VK: I even heard that when there was party committee in the city, it seemed like it was forbidden to visit these places in this region.
NAVIG: Yes, exactly.
- 14 -
P.I. Solter reads a letter from Chernobrov out loud.
PI: I'm Pelageya Ivanovna, but put me here as Maria.
TUAPSE: Here you said about Buyanov that he was very interested, but who else was interested in this whole case?
VK: What now?
NAVIG: Who else was interested in what you have to say?
VK: Oh, well, Yudin wrote a letter to me first. Well, the first one I answer it. I just did not want to deal with all this scribbling, I was even pissed that I, what source am I? I am in the deep and do not know these events. What I heard as rumors, I wrote to him. So, he must find, that's the way, whether he has friends, comrades, who are better acquainted with whole thing.
TUAPSE: And Yudin was interested?
NAVIG: Yudin was there.
VK: I also, you know, I was somewhat connected with Sverdlovsk, I worked as a senior inspector of the state forest inspection of Sovivdelles (Soviet Ivdel Forrest - ed. note), lived in Ivdel, in the Northern Urals. But often I came to Sverdlovsk, I had a certificate from the Regional Party Committee. So, we went to inspect large enterprises, consumers, even large factories, metallurgical plants in Magnitogorsk, Sverdlovsk, everywhere Lespromhozes (Forrest Management Sectors - ed. note), docks were checked. But we had a certificate, besides our tasks, let's say, a reminder that we should reflect in the acts of inspections, the Regional Committee of People's Control gave us these tasks. We had to report 12 checkpoints. So I…
NAVIG: Strauh says that there was the Sosvinsky Reserve, there was a training ground. It's higher up there ...
VK: Maybe there was. What was it called again?
NAVIG: Sosvinsky Reserve, this is on the border with the Tyumen region, in my opinion.
VK: I'm convinced that ...
NAVIG: And if there was a test range, then missiles flew there.
VK: I'm convinced that this is some kind of technogenic, let's say, accident.
NAVIG: There are no traces of explosion. There is no explosion, there are no pits.
VK: The explosion maybe not so evident, the explosion can be air above the ground.
NAVIG: Then their limbs would be broken, they would be thrown back, hit, arms and legs would break. Bodies would be scattered around.
VK: How do you know what happened, and how the bodies were found? Don't you think there could be some staging? Do you know where and how were they killed?
NAVIG: This one had his skull caved in - clearly from a blow with a butt. The bone here was pressed into the skull to a depth of 2 cm, this force must be huge.
VK: This is a terrible secret. I can not even imagine. I have heard what beautiful people they were. Women see here, in my opinion, one of them Dubinina, she - an only daughter of her parents. Father, they say, was so solid. And Dyatlov himself, you see.
TUAPSE: Do you know anything about their past? Maybe something you heard somewhere?
VK: Absolutely nothing, these are students. How can we know?
TUAPSE: Well, you never know, rumors?
VK: No, no, there's something doubtful in what they say about Zolotaryov.
NAVIG: Well, no one knows who he is, and where is he from. But there are rumors. He went allegedly to get a master of sports.
VK: Listen, I imagine that there were twigs on the ground, you see, if it is a brushwood, it will be dry. You could, you know, start a fire, and not climb, but there were fragments of branches of the tree. Birches are cut, small birches. There grев birch, aspen. And they like, they tried to cut this with a knife. Why didn't they see around, you know, that there was brushwood laying around them.
NAVIG: Тhey cut branches to make the flooring. There was a stream there, a ravine, they made a den there. They found the rest in May.
VK: A, flooring, well, maybe flooring ...
NAVIG: From cut branches ...
VK: From the spruce here with this from the conifer?
NAVIG: Yes. The tops were severed. Yudin shows photos, and there are severed. And who cut them down is not clear.
VK: And what did they cut them down with?
NAVIG: With an ax, of course, what else. So there were outsiders. Some kind of strangers.
VK: Listen, aren't there ranks that do just that - clean and tie up loose ends. If there was something, they could just clean everything up and hide it somewhere in general. Not leave a trace knowing that they will be an extensive search and so on. This is unreasonable.
NAVIG: Maybe be they were in a hurry?
- 15 -
VERDEN: Maybe it wasn't on that level at all.
VK: Why hurry?
NAVIG: Why hurry? So searches have already begun on February, 12th. They had to come back by the 12th. If they don't show by the 12th, a civil search will begin. And they were discovered much later. When their accident occurred or whatever it was.
VERDEN: Pelageya Ivanovna, why did you say here that the corpses were not nine, but eleven? Is it true?
PI: Of course it's true, if I wrote it.
VERDEN: Why not nine but eleven, don't you remember you said that? Why were there eleven corpses?
NAVIG: So, what's written there, that's it?
PI: Well, I only wrote the truth.
TUAPSE: And why eleven?
VK: Before I write something, it was necessary to give me a note. It must have been writen somewhere.
VERDEN: Do you think there could be eleven corpses?
VK: How could there be eleven, Yudin's alive, well, listen, will he let his comrades down?
NAVIG: Well, maybe there were outsiders.
VERDEN: There could be outsiders.
NAVIG: They could have been killed there, too. If counterintelligence was involved, then anything is possible.
VK: But if they went up there on skis, you understand the whole thing, clothes, there was some kind of unidentified clothing there, Yudin, but maybe he couldn't recognize it.
NAVIG: There broken skis, there were pieces of film. They did not take the film.
VK: No, are you sure they didn't take the film?
NAVIG: The film, and there were pieces of film.
VK: When they were preparing a place for the tent in the snow, they photographed the first frame.
NAVIG: The films were in the cameras, and that was in the snow, it was found later. It's in the protocol.
VK: I heard there was a circle metal part there.
NAVIG: That's much later. From the S-200, the rocket. That could have fallen afterwards.
VERDEN: Pelageya Ivanovna, why did you say after all that there were eleven corpses?
VK: No, maybe she forgot.
VERDEN: But there is even a clarification there that the corpses were not nine, but eleven.
TUAPSE: And that it's written in some kind of article.
VK: Who, where is it written?
VERDEN: Well, that's what Chernobrov wrote.
VK: She (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note), you know, she was already coming to Leningrad. I came earlier, and there was a member of the Komsomol and journalist on the train. They started talking, sat into the same compartment, and she (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note) told them that they were eleven. Maybe her memory was already going astray. That's the problem.
VERDEN: And what year was it?
VK: It was probably already in 1999 or 2000. I arrived, in my opinion, in 1998, and she remained there for a while. And there she said to them something in the compartment which I don't know whether it's true or not.
VERDEN: And do you know someone in Ivdel, who in those days, could have anything to do with this matter? Transportation of corpses. Maybe you remember someone who lives in Ivdel. A truck driver, some orderlies?
VK: Well, at that time, why did I need to know about this? Now question are raised, who, whom, what. To find a catch. At that time, we absolutely went on with our lifes and an event like this, something happened, then everything died down. Years have passed.
VERDEN: Well, you know the whole system, who could be responsible for the removal and transportation of corpses, for example. Well, you had some kind of transport there, the head of the transport department.
VK: Well, to take out corpses from the scene, must be by helicopters. Helicopters were always ordered by the Institution. There was an enterprise, an Ivdel airline, there were always requested. I was even flying on a helicopter, I flew by helicopter to do my job.
TUAPSE: Was it a civilian enterprise or a military one, where helicopters were requested?
VK: No, these are civil aviation enterprises, well, the airport.
TUAPSE: And what about civil helicopters?
VK: Yes, civilian helicopters. And the Institution sometimes rented them. If it was necessary to transfer cargo or something, somewhere. Geologists often rented them ...
- 16 -
TUAPSE: Did the institution have its own helicopters, its aviation?
VK: No, they didn't.
VERDEN: And what did they have, any kind of transport? Were there cars?
VK: Sure. There were a lot of cars.
VERDEN: If they were sent by train, as in one version, they (corpses) should have been driven by a car.
VK: We had motorbikes, and boats on Lozva river. If somebody escaped, there were boats on the river. There was the motor depot, and they had their own vehicles. This was an large enterprise, the H-240/2.
NAVIG: You have to write here your name Pelageya Ivanovna and sign.
VERDEN: Is this Pelageya Ivanovna?
VK: Yes, that she is.
VERDEN: And where is she? In Ivdel? What year is that?
VK: One minute, let me bring the photo album.
NAVIG: And here's a gynecologist, what was her name? You were there. She was with Sharonin.
PI: A woman who worked in a free hospital, Taranova Anna Petrovna.
NAVIG: Was she also at the washout?
TUAPSE: We are talking about the free free clinic.
NAVIG: Well, she (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note) was there with her and Prudkov. Here is a letter, where she (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note) wrote about it.
PI: She (Taranova Anna Petrovna - ed. note) worked in the free clinic.
NAVIG: Was she ... was she present with Prudkov.
PI: We worked in the zone, and she worked in a free clinic. In the zone only men were allowed, not women. So Anna Petrovna did not work with us in the zone, but in a free clinic. But she knows everything, I don't know if she's alive or not.
NAVIG: She didn't work, but she was present at the morgue.
VERDEN: And why was she in the morgue?
NAVIG: So the morgue was not in the zone.
TUAPSE: I still don't understand this division to the end.
VERDEN: I don't understand either.
NAVIG: No, why, it's for a citizen anyway, but here there were convicts already.
TUAPSE: Here is for prisoners, here is for civilians, here is partially for civilians.
NAVIG: No, there were prisoners here. How can you enter here, if there are prisoners.
VERDEN: Why did you need a gynecologist?
VK: Convicts were treated separately, but it's possible with civilians.
PI: They called out how the commission was.
VERDEN: Oh, just like the members of the commission some, huh?
PI: Yes, yes. And this is me, this is my office, I was dealing with the systems.
VK: This is the surgical department at a different times.
VK: Well, of course, she worked here, Mary Ivanovna. These are all the doctors here.
TUAPSE: And who's this in the middle?
VK: That's Prudkov. And all the medics.
PI: That's Prudkov, that's the Head nurse. And this is Tzel Davydovna, a doctor.
VERDEN: Do you know if any of these doctors still live in Ivdel?
VK: Yes, take the photos with you.
NAVIG: Are you sure?
VK: Yes, of course.
PI: And this is Tsaskin Alexander Evgenievich. He was a gynecologist.
VK: This is Savenkov, the Director if the hospital.
VERDEN: This was a free hospital, right?
VK: Yes, free. This is the wife of the Head of the department of the Institution, she was the wife of this one here ...
VK: Ivanova Valentina Ivanovich.
PI: She was a doctor. And this is Tsaskin Alexander Evgenievich.
- 17 -
VK: These are already doctors in the zone here. Here is Sharonin ...
NAVIG: Who, the one with the glasses?
VK: Here, Mary Ivanovna, you see, she is looking sideways.
NAVIG: Where? That's her?
VERDEN: But this is the zone, it's the hospital in the zone, right?
VK: This is a hospital in the zone, but here she is, Mary Ivanovna.
VERDEN: Tell me, do you know if any of these people are alive? Could they know something, for example?
VK: Well, this one is probably alive. Nurses are probably alive. Here is Pronovozova, she's still alive.
VERDEN: Yes? What's her name?
VK: Pronozova. Here she is, she is a Head nurse, a war veteran.
NAVIG: In Ivdel?
VK: Yes, she lives in Ivdel, still alive.
VERDEN: What's her name?
VK: She was a Head nurse in the zone.
PI: Alexandra Ivanovna.
VERDEN: What's her name?
PI: Alexandra Ivanovna Pronozova.
VK: She was in the free clinic at the time.
NAVIG: Do you have a phone or an address for her?
VERDEN: And she had something to do with this story? Well, she could have, right?
VK: Well, maybe she knows something. She's an old worker.
PI: She's from Ivdel, she would know.
VK: She worked as a civilian, she worked in the free clinic, and then she moved there. Because the pay was better.
VERDEN: She's even born in Ivdel, right?
VK: Yes, from Ivdel. A lot of them lived there.
VERDEN: And can there be anybody else? Or maybe someone else is alive, people in all are not so old in the photo.
VK: Well, this is Dr. Schmidt, this is Tzel Davydovna, she's gone now. Here it is Anya Molostova, she was our neighbor.
VERDEN: And Sharonin is dead, right?
PI: Yes. Long dead.
VK: Here I can clearly see Pronozova.
PI: Well Pronozova is still alive. She lives in the small town there.
VERDEN: In town? She lives in the town.
VK: This is what you should do.
VERDEN: We'll try.
NAVIG: We did not know, now we know.
PI: This is Elvira Andreevna, still alive, and her daughter Lisa.
VERDEN: What's her name?
VK: She is also alive, Elvira.
VERDEN: Does Elvira Andreevna have a surname?
VK: Now, one minute. Simon, in my opinion.
PI: Simon? No no. What was her name ...
VK: Elvira Andreevna even wrote letters to us, there are somewhere here.
VERDEN: Maybe you have some envelope with an address? Maybe we should contact her, too?
VK: I 'll look for envelopes. Well, you see, here ...
PI: There are probably still alive too ...
PI: This is Borsch Lisa.
- 18 -
NAVIG: Mary Ivanovna, I mean Pelageya Ivanovna.
VERDEN: And what's her name, Borsch?
PI: Borsch Elvira.
VERDEN: How is it spelled?
PI: Lisa Borsch.
VERDEN: Is this a zone hospital?
PI: Yes. And this is Valentina, I forgot how ... She lived beyond the river.
PI: This is our hosting nurse. Her name was German, I think.
VERDEN: By the way, did the hosting nurse have anything to do with this matter?
VK: Well, probably, they are alive. I dont know. Here is Taranova Anna Petrovna. She lives in Sverdlovsk, she just recently moved. She is alive, we even have her phone number.
NAVIG: Yes, can we have it.
VK: There she was, she was a young doctor.
VERDEN: This one?
VERDEN: Was she present at the autopsy? Good…
NAVIG: Not at the autopsy, but at the wash.
VERDEN: And in general, in St. Petersburg, no one has moved from your friends? Is there no one else here?
VK: You know, well there was Sichkar who worked somewhere in some neurological center or in some place Sichkar, a doctor. He spent 3 years in Ivdel, and after the Institute came here, he lives here.
VERDEN: Did he have anything to do with the Dyatlov case?
VK: How should I know, I don't know.
NAVIG: We are only interested in this aspect.
VK: Well, doctor, Taranova, now I'll look, let me get up. Photos of the dead, washed them there, stored? She (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note) only has an opinion, there is noway she could know, and I heard that they were put in the coffins immediately. But it turns out, they, you see, did the autopsy there. And if they did, then must be in the zone, because ...
VERDEN: You know, the rumor could have appeared by mistake. That is, there is a certain level of personnel who knows that the corpses will be sent to Sverdlovsk. And that's all that matters for them, because their work is done. Then comes the second round, which knows that the corpses will not be sent right away, something like that.
VK: And they could have done an autopsy in the surgical department of the zone.
VERDEN: Of course, they could have come from the small town here in the zone and perform an autopsy. And people thought that they were taken to Sverdlovsk.
PI: They had everything handy, everybody knew.
VK: So an ambulance, not one, but it was ambulance, loaded the corpses, drove to the zone, and did it right there.
VERDEN: Well yes, an ambulance could have shuttled between the small town and the zone.
VK: No, not there, but next to the zone.
NAVIG: No, wait, the fact is that Pelageya Ivanovna says that they changed their clothes into new clothes. So did they take off their clothes for examination again? She (Pelageya Ivanovna - ed. note) can not confirm this, because she has forgotten it already.
TUAPSE: And what rumors, what kind of talk was there in the city after this accident?
VERDEN: Yes, what did people say, what were the rumors?
VK: First in the city, you know what, there were rumors that they were dead, here and there ...
VERDEN: And from what?
VK: Well, they were saying that an autopsy will be performed to determine in what condition they would be. They said that Mansi must have attacked them. Because the tent was cut, you know.
VERDEN: Were there any reasons for the population to think that the Mansi did it? Did Mansi generally had a habit of attacking civilians? Were there similar cases?
VK: No, Mansi, in my opinion, are unlikely to attack.
VERDEN: So you've never heard?
VK: Although they say that there they had a sacred mountain, where is not allowed ...
VERDEN: And there were no cases of attacks on geologists, there, or someone else?
VK: No, there were not.
- 19 -
NAVIG: Let's continue with the rumors.
VK: Ok. 300 kilometers from Ivdel there is a Mansi village. There, not far from the village, the administration of the Ivdel district built them a new settlement, so this nationality, doesn't perish completely. To help them sustain.
VERDEN: Hence the rumors. Besides the Mansi, what other rumors did you hear?
VK: Well, these rumors, they are such a benevolent people, if you visit them, you know, they give you what they have, help you what they can.
NAVIG: And rumors about the Dyatlov group?
VK: Well, nobody mentioned back then a landslide or some kind of shaft, there was no hurricane. Everybody said that must be rockets.
VERDEN: Why did people think that they were rockets? Why didn't they think that was an avalanche?
VK: Because an avalanche, who knows these mountains, especially, well, I understand the hurricane, such a hurricane can exist. Well, there are hurricanes that can raise a tractor, and throw it ...
VK: It so happened that, I think I even heard that there was an atomic bomb near the mountains, they even tested it.
VERDEN: So, there were such rumors at the time?
VK: Yes, there were such rumors that even the radiation increased in Ivdel. Yes, and no one has published any information about this in the newspaper. The background could be published to people. Although this was all hidden. Radiation background.
NAVIG: Now, I would like to, Pelageya Ivanovna ... All the same, you dressed them in clothes?
PI: Well, I was dressing them, I had some help.
TUAPSE: And who helped?
VERDEN: And how did you dress them? They were corpses, how did you dress them? You cut the suit on theback, how do you dress a corpse?
PI: First on the head, hands, and then pull them down, pants.
TUAPSE: And who helped you?
VK: Yes, there could and should be nurses.
VERDEN: Who helped?
VK: Who, some authorized people, could have been?
PI: Orderlies maybe, I have forgotten already.
VERDEN: You couldn't have been dressing them yourself? It's probably hard to put something on a corpse.
VK: Well, of course, you can imagine.
NAVIG: If they were dressed, then why do this?
VERDEN: This doesn't make any sense at all.
End of recording.
Victor Konstantinovich and Pelageya Ivanovna Solter
Napisano 20 kwiecień 2018 - 23:03
Решение правления Фонда «Памяти группы Дятлова» от 19.04.2018 г
Присутствовали: Кунцевич Ю., Бартоломей П., Яхонтова М., Анкудинов В, Якименко В., Будрин А., Зиновьев Е., Карелин В., Старцев А.
1. Информация о действиях КП 12.04.2018г
2. Обсуждение события.
3. Подготовка ответа.
Ответ для СМИ и интернет сообщества.
Эксгумация 12 апреля 2018 года.
Фонд «Памяти группы Дятлова» ( далее Фонд) не имеет претензий к КП, так как понимает, что СМИ действуют в своих коммерческих интересах.
В связи с этим выражаем свою озабоченность будущими результатами официальных следственных действий, которые предстоит осуществить, так как сейчас захоронение по факту разрушено.
Фонд надеется, что СМИ не будет предпринимать аналогичных (подпольных) действий в отношении остальных захоронений группы Дятлова и предупредит об этом Администрацию города Екатеринбурга и ЕМУП КСО.
Фонд всегда готов на совместные со СМИ действия по возобновлению следствия в связи с заявлениями родственников и вновь открывшимися обстоятельствами дела.
Фонд высоко оценивает участие в расследовании КП, их физический и материальный вклад.
В связи с этим предлагаем принять участие в приглашении адвоката для ознакомления с «закрытыми» документами.
Napisano 21 kwiecień 2018 - 23:54
© NGO "INTERNET CENTER of the Dyatlov group tragedy", 2008.
The text of the conversation of the "Center for Civil Investigation of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy" NAVIG, with historian-ethnographer, expert of the Ivdelag Felix Yakovlevich Solomonovich, in Ivdel on the case of Dyatlov Pass incident on 13 May 2008 by phone.
* Clicking on an image will bring up the original photo
NAVIG: Hello, here I've been given your phone in Ivdellag, so I can talk to you...
FY: I'm listening.
NAVIG: We are interested in the area in Ivdellag, which was managing forest development and something else there, the 41st district and the 2nd North included. And here in Ivdel there was some medical unit N-240, in my opinion, or No. 240.
FY: This institution was 240.
NAVIG: Institution? Wasn't it a medical unit?
FY: They were all under the name N-240.
NAVIG: All of them?
FY: All units. And then there were indexing, index 2, index 3, index 4 and so on.
NAVIG: It's clear, and when passing, for example, tourists of the Ivdel area, was there a mandatory registration on arrival and departure?
FY: Well, actually tourists had to register, but many were not doing it. For example, Dyatlov group perished, they went through, they were not registered anywhere.
NAVIG: That's it, my questions are just about this!
FY: That Institution has nothing to do with them.
NAVIG: The fact is that in the autopsy reports it says that they conducted an examination in this medical unit N240.
FY: You understand, now you can say anything, in fact now, well, it did not come out right now, but some time ago, this big article came out by the north-Urals comrade, his name is Yuri Yakimov.
NAVIG: Well, this friend we know from Sverdlovsk.
FY: He read a lot of material on these matters concerning everybody. And his version of the events I like best.
NAVIG: Ну нас интересуют факты. Дело в том, что в деле подписи стоят эксперта Возрожденного. Well, we are interested in the facts. The fact is that in the autopsy reports are signed by expert Vozrozhdenny.
FY: Yes, it's all nonsense. Yes, I am aware of all these many cases, because at that time I worked as the chairman of the sports committee in Ivdel.
FY: Yes, at teh same time when they started looking for the students. I just came to work in the sports committee. And I knew perfectly well Korotaev, the investigator, who was in charge.
NAVIG: This is what he says, I talked to him personally.
FY: Well, I knew Volodya Korotaeva, I knew him perfectly well because we worked together in the Komsomol. But the fact is that you understand, all this is talk, nobody specifically, nobody really ...
NAVIG: I undertsand, in your opinion, where is the archive of this medical unit?
FY: I think the archive of the medical unit is in Sverdlovsk, for sure.
NAVIG: in Sverdlovsk, you think?
FY: Yes, there.
NAVIG: We want to make an official request. The fact is that, for example, here is the wife of Strauh, she worked here just in the medical unit. She says that Dyatlov group were packed and sent in special carriage to Sverdlovsk. And Korotaev says that he was personally present at ...
FY: Who said that?
NAVIG: Korotaev Vladimir Ivanovich.
FY: He is correct, the autopsy was done in Ivdel, and not even outside the zone, but the autopsy was done in the in the zone.
NAVIG: Yes, in the zone. Were you there at that time?
FY: I was not in the zone.
NAVIG: No, well, did you live in Ivdel?
FY: Of course I was in Ivdel at that time. They performed the autopsy in the zone, and only after the opening in the zone they were sent to Sverdlovsk.
NAVIG: Well, was there one group of tourists or two?
FY: There was one group that was dead.
NAVIG: Well, the fact is that Strauch's wife, and there was surgeon Prudkov, his nurse Solter, they claim ... Well, the surgeon already died, you see.
FY: Yes, the surgeon has died.
NAVIG: And she says that they did not cut them open there, but they sent them right away, and a version appeared that it was ...
FY: Ну, Коротаев присутствовал при вскрытиях при всех, он и второй следователь был Иванов еще , они присутствовали при этих вскрытиях при всех. Well, Korotaev was present at the autopsy on all, he and the second investigator Ivanov, they were present at the autopsies on all.
NAVIG: I see. But these people don't lie, so there is a version that there were two groups.
- 2 -
FY: No, there were not two groups.
FY: No, the searches went for one group. In Ivdel there are many employees of the Institute, the military unit was here as well. The military unit, the military personnel and the hikers of the city participated in the search but did not look for anyone except the Dyatlov group.
NAVIG: Did the organs actively participate there??
FY: The organs were very active, because they were connected, the military unit was there, there was also military unit 6602. It was involved, the rulers of the department worked there. The military unit was there, the security of the zones was 6602. This part was established in 56, three years later, this happened. Before that, there was no military unit in Ivdel.
NAVIG: There were all kinds of light balls flying, can you say anything about that?
FY: What are you saying?
NAVIG: Some glowing objects flew across the sky.
FY: I don't think so, it's not just me, you can ask anybody that lived Ivdel at that time. We had fireballs over Ivdel very often.
NAVIG: Well, it's because there were some rockets, right?
FY: Yes, we thought it was a launch. You see, what's interesting is that a ball of fire will fly by, in 2-3 days will be an announcement that in the Soviet Union a spaceship has been launched there or some kind of artificial satellite. So it's hard to say something, because we didn't really know anything. The thing is that after that, somewhere in the 90s, it means that in the 90s the head of the city, there was such a Ugarov Vitaly Evgenievich, he created a special commission to check those places, whether there are any polygons there. The commission did not confirm anything, denied everything completely. So it's difficult to say anything now. I'm going to advise you to turn to the medical unit in Sverdlovsk, now there are two medical departments, one of the GUIN, the second medical department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. You need to turn to th emedical department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Address is Repin, 4A. They can and they have to tell you where to find the materials you need. You will not find anything in Ivdel, there is no management office in Ivdel anymore. Management ended its existence in 2006.
NAVIG: Well, does the zone exist?
FY: The zone, yes, there are separate colonies, but the Office itself, which was at the Head of all these things, is not there now.
NAVIG: And this medical unit, does it still exist?
FY: No, there is no medical unit anymore, all of it, there aren't any departments, there is nothing left. There is only a polyclinic, which is subordinated directly to Sverdlovsk. It is like a rehabilitation center, it has nothing to do with prisoners.
NAVIG: Is it for civilians?
FY: It serves military personnel, superiors, and civilians, everybody. And the zone serves Sverdlovsk only, and it is serving everybody.
NAVIG: Did you know Prudkov?
FY: Yosif Davydovich, I personally knew him very well.
NAVIG: Did he tell you anything?
FY: What about? About, no ... He did not say anything, he soon left Ivdel.
NAVIG: The fact is that we turned to his son, he is now...
FY: He does not know anything, he was young then
NAVIG: No, he told us that his father did not say anything to them and then forbid them to talk about it.
FY: Yes, he could have done anything, they wouldn't have said anything to them ... The fact is that he has 2 sons, not one, two.
NAVIG: Two sons?
FY: He has two sons, son Michail, and the second son was Alexander.
NAVIG: Well, we talked to Alexander.
FY: Alexander is born in 57, what could he tell you?
NAVIG: Well, that's right, he did not say anything.
FY: But you can talk to Mikhail.
NAVIG: I see, well, we'll find him, yes.
FY: I think you will find him.
NAVIG: Yes. Well, it's clear, if there are any questions, then I'll call you back.
FY: Yes, for God's sake, don't hesitate to call me at any time, I will share what I know on the matter.
NAVIG: I remembered another thing, do you know anybody who worked there at that time?
FY: Where? In Ivdel?
NAVIG: No, just in this medical unit, if they were present at any events that might be related.
FY: Honestly, I'm not going to answer this question right now.
NAVIG: No, well, not right away. I'll call you later.
FY: You see, 49 years have already passed, it's a lot of time.
NAVIG: Well, they will be old people already.
NAVIG: I wish you success.
FY: Same to you. If anything, please call, I will help you at any time.
End of conversation.
Это весь партийный аппарат г. Ивделя
Napisano 23 kwiecień 2018 - 21:09
Napisano 23 kwiecień 2018 - 21:21
What was the mode of closing of the tent - buttons (пуговицы), straps?
Why the group pitched their tent at this spot on the night of the incident
Napisano 29 kwiecień 2018 - 21:39
Тайна перевала Дятлова.
Это был удар большой силы
Напомним, зимой 1959 года в горах Северного Урала пропали девять туристов, ушедших в поход под руководством Игоря Дятлова.
Через месяц спасатели обнаружили их разрезанную палатку.
А в радиусе полутора километров от нее - пять замерзших тел.
Трупы остальных нашли только в мае.
Почти все туристы были разутые и полураздетые.
У некоторых - смертельные травмы.
До сих пор не разгадано, почему ребята убежали на лютый мороз и на свою погибель.
"Комсомольская правда" организовала эксгумацию тела самого загадочного члена группы Дятлова: Продолжение расследования
12 апреля на Ивановском кладбище Екатеринбурга мы провели эксгумацию тела одного из самых загадочных участников группы Дятлова - Семена Золотарева.
Будем пока что говорить с приставкой – предположительно – Золотарева, поскольку еще не готова экспертиза ДНК.
Тот самый момент, когда был найден черепФото: АЛЕКСЕЙ БУЛАТОВ
Нас спрашивают: зачем вы это сделали?
1. Установить личность того, кто лежит в могиле под памятным знаком с табличкой «Семен Золотарев».
Документов на это захоронение нет ни у родственников, ни в службе городских кладбищ.
А стало быть вообще неясно, захоронен ли кто-то там?
2. А если останки в могиле есть, то оценить характер травм скелета.
По нашей просьбе эксгумацию проводил судебно-медицинский эксперт Московского бюро судебно-медицинской экспертизы Сергей Никитин.
Также на кладбище присутствовала исследователь трагедии, врач Галина Сазонова.
С ними мы и поговорили в эфире радио «Комсомольская правда» (97,2 Москва), где рассказали о первых результатах экспертиз.
Приведем расшифровку разговора.
Эксперт Сергей Никитин моет череп для метода фотоналоженияФото: АЛЕКСЕЙ БУЛАТОВ
ОТКУДА ВЗЯЛИСЬ КАМНИ?
Сергей Никитин (СН): Могила оказалась очень своеобразной.
Возник даже вопрос, типично ли такое захоронение.
Оказалось, что могила на 90 процентов засыпана крупными кусками гранита и пересыпана мелкой гранитной крошкой.
Корреспонденты (Кор): Есть мнение, что могилу вскрывали, а потом просто завалили камнями.
СН: Я полагаю, что на Ивановском кладбище почти все могилы засыпаны камнями, так как оно находится на горе.
Когда все камни были извлечены, мы обнаружили скелет, который лежит в положении на спине, ногами - на восток.
Это православная ориентация.
Начали извлекать кости скелета.
На листах картона мы с Галиной раскладывали кости в анатомическом порядке.
В частности, Галина раскладывала ребра.
Я в это время занимался черепом.
Его надо было отмыть, посушить.
Фото могилы Семена Золотарева на Ивановском кладбище, сделанное в 1959 году
Кор: Вы взяли в руки череп и сразу сказали, что это череп мужчины и ему 35-40 лет.
СН: При подобных исследованиях изначально решается вопрос: пол, возраст, расовый тип человека.
Так вот этот скелет принадлежит мужчине, возраст – в пределах 35-40 лет, расовый тип – европеоидный.
Даже отдельные кости могут быть объектом определения возраста.
Но наиболее информативным является череп, а на нем – зубы. Вернее, их степень изношенности.
Они позволяют более объективно и точно определить возраст по специальной таблице.
Скелет этого мужчины укладывался в пределы 35-40 лет.
А Золотареву должно было исполниться 38 лет.
Еще мы оцениваем стоматологический статус.
Оцениваем следы стоматологического вмешательства.
Абсолютно точно состояние зубов соответствовало тому, которое было описано при вскрытии в 1959 году.
Те же коронки из нержавеющей стали на тех же зубах.
Фото Семена, по которому эксперт Сергей Никитин делал фотоналожение
Кор: Там была одна интересная коронка.
СН: Да, своеобразная коронка седьмого зуба, смежный зуб был на одном корне.
А эта коронка – на втором корешке.
Это особенности подхода стоматолога.
Видимо, он решил, что наиболее оптимально будет провести вмешательство таким образом.
Кор: Может ли эта фальшкоронка быть некой шпионской закладкой?
Извините за такой вопрос, но его задают на форумах.
СН: Это просто особенности стоматологического вмешательства.
Врач решил максимально сохранить корешки, которые имелись, чтобы человек мог более полноценно жевать.
Галина Сазонова (ГС): Характерны ли такие протезы для постановки в местах заключения?
(Есть версия, что вместо Семена похоронили беглого зека, - Ред.)
СН: Это обычная работа стоматолога.
Несколько выше среднего уровня.
Ничем замечательным она не отличается.
Обычные коронки из нержавеющей стали.
ГС: Я помогала только на первом этапе, когда еще очищали кости от земли, работали кисточкой.
Я делала предварительную фильтрацию костей.
Я не делала экспертную раскладку скелета.
Прошу вас ответить на вопрос: куда делся передний зуб?
СН: Эта потеря произошла 12 апреля нынешнего года, в процессе извлечения черепа из могилы.
У нас не было времени искать его.
Он остался в могиле.
ГС: Были ли другие повреждения черепа?
СН: Череп поврежден не был.
Вся травматизация пришлась на грудную клетку.
ГС: Почему не остались волосы?
СН: Это частное явление.
В каких-то могилах при определенных условиях волосы сохраняются.
Даже по прошествии сотен лет прекрасно сохраняются волосы.
А где-то они не сохраняются.
Портрет Семена и изображение его черепа совпало по 13-ти основным позициямФото: АЛЕКСЕЙ БУЛАТОВ
Кор: Что такое метод фотоналожения, который вы использовали?
СН: Этот метод был разработан в 1956 году Юрием Михайловичем Кубицким, советским военным экспертом.
Он догадался, что можно идентифицировать человека, наложив фотографическое изображение на изображение черепа.
Череп находится на подставке перед фотоаппаратом.
В те времена на матовое стекло видоискателя накладывался негатив фотографии.
Путем вращения, перемещения черепа и отдаления-приближения его по отношению к объективу происходило вписывание черепа по точкам, сравнение контуров.
И после этого констатация, есть ли совпадение этих контуров.
Кор: По каким точкам совмещают изображение?
СН: Основные точки – ушные, точки углов глаз, подносовая точка, точка линии смыкания губ, подбородочная точка, контуры теменной, теменно-височный, височный, нижний контур лица.
Есть ряд других точек.
Максимально можно оценить около 24 признаков, если у нас есть качественная фотография лысого человека и если череп не имеет существенных утрат.
Но для опознания достаточно и 12 признаков при условии, что мы определяем пол человека и его возраст.
В нашем случае совпали 13 признаков.
Это говорит о том, что это останки Семена Золотарева.
ОН ЛЕЖАЛ НА ЧЕМ-ТО ТВЕРДОМ
ГС: В 1959 году эксперт описал, что линий переломов ребер у Золотарева было две.
«После извлечения органокомплекса из грудной и брюшной полости определяются переломы второго, третьего, четвертого, пятого, шестого ребер справа по окологрудинной и средней подмышечной линии».
Насколько это совпало с тем, что увидели мы?
СН: Это совпало практически полностью.
За исключением маленькой несущественной поправки.
Я бы определил подмышечную линию не как среднюю, а как заднюю подмышечную линию.
Некоторые кости не были исследованы.
Мы посмотрели правую лопатку, там были три перелома.
В акте этого отмечено не было.
Я предположил сначала, что это посмертная травма.
Вся могила была завалена кусками гранита, давление на кости скелета приличное.
Но потом я провел переоценку, ведь левая лопатка оказалась цела.
Если бы были посмертные повреждения, логично предположить, что были бы поломаны и левая лопатка, и множественные переломы вообще были бы других костей скелета.
ГС: Да, мы не видели этих повреждений.
Мы находили гораздо более хрупкие кости.
Даже щитовидный хрящ.
И сам череп не раздавлен.
Получается, этот вес не оказывал воздействия на кости.
СН: Камни в процессе укладки, при закапывании могилы после похорон сложились в виде свода.
Вниз они не давят.
Ребра были сломаны справа, и правая лопатка.
Это укладывается в механизм образования переломов ребер.
ГС: Правильно ли говорить о том, что мы оцениваем грудную клетку как конструкцию и говорим о конструкционных переломах?
То есть одно воздействие могло вызывать несколько переломов?
СН: Это говорит о том, что зона контакта, воздействия превышала размеры от первого до шестого ребра.
Это была большая тяжелая масса.
Скорее всего, снег.
ГС: Можно определить, когда были получены данные травмы?
СН: Наличие крови в плевральной полости у Золотарева однозначно говорит о том, что это было прижизненно.
ГС: В какой позе находился человек в момент получения травмы?
СН: Однозначно можно сказать, что он находился лежа на спине.
И травматическое воздействие происходило спереди назад, может быть, несколько справа налево.
ГС: Поверхность, на которой лежал человек, была относительно твердой?
Маловероятно, что он лежал в снегу.
ГС: Вы обнаружили, что не все ребра сломаны одинаково.
Можно ли говорить, что сила, которая действовала на грудную клетку, максимально действовала там, где ребра сломаны полностью?
А там, где они не доломались, вроде как воздействие было ниже?
СН: При подобной компрессии и при подобных переломах по подмышечной линии ребра сломались в результате чрезмерного сгибания.
Это называется сгибательный характер переломов.
По окологрудинной линии характер переломов был разгибательный.
Это говорит о том, что травматическое воздействие происходило в тот момент, когда человек находился лежа на спине, и подсказывает направление травмирующей массы.
ГС: Это вариант, как будто сдавило бетонной плитой?
Или это вариант ударной компрессии?
Есть версия, что упала большая масса снега.
СН: Было ли это ударное воздействие или медленное сдавливание в течение какого-то времени?
Когда исследуется труп не в такой степени изменения, в какой пребывал труп Золотарева на момент вскрытия, есть мягкие ткани, подкожная жировая клетчатка, то можно оценить кровоизлияние в подкожную жировую клетчатку.
Если бы это был удар, то мы бы увидели в мышцах и подкожной жировой клетчатке кровоизлияния.
Если это масса типа снежного слоя сдавливала постепенно, вряд ли мы это кровоизлияние увидели бы.
ГС: Кровоизлияния были отмечены при вскрытии.
И на гистологии, и в акте.
СН: Это говорит о том, что это было резкое сдавление, резкое воздействие.
Кор: Это похоже на удар, скажем, автомобиля?
СН: Автомобиль – это как сравнение.
В нашем случае можно говорить, что это было ударное воздействие большой массы.
ГС: Взрывная волна могла быть?
СН: Исключается полностью.
Травмы были бы другого характера.
ОТЧЕГО СЛУЧИЛСЯ ПЕРЕЛОМ?
Кор: На малой берцовой кости ноги была обнаружена костная мозоль, которая свидетельствует о прижизненном переломе.
Но есть мнение, что у Семена никогда не было травм.
СН: При исследовании был обнаружен след давнего прижизненного перелома правой малой берцовой кости в средней ее части.
О давности перелома судить невозможно.
ГС: Можно ли судить о характере заживления по такой костной мозоли?
СН: Две половины были сопоставлены по оси.
Смещения не было.
Может, он в детстве образовался.
Золотарев прошел всю войну.
Пулевое ранение – вряд ли.
Хотя по-всякому могло быть.
Если пуля простреливает кость, это будет дефект – укорочение кости.
МОГ ЛИ ТУРИСТ С ТАКИМИ ТРАВМАМИ ПРОЙТИ ПОЛТОРА КМ ПО СКЛОНУ?
Мы благодарим Сергея Никитина и Галину Сазонову за интересную беседу, за проделанную работу.
И хотим добавить, что в справке о смерти Семена Золотарева, выданной 12 мая 1959 года ЗАГСом Екатеринбурга маме Семена, значится, что он погиб из «действия низкой температуры».
Как показывают результаты проведенных экспертиз, это не вся правда.
После эфира мы задали дополнительные вопросы эксперту Никитину, чтобы уточнить картину произошедшего.
- Если предположить, что огромный пласт снега накрыл туриста, будем думать, Семена Золотарева, когда он лежал в палатке, то мог ли Золотарев передвигаться с такими травмами?
- Думаю, мог, но кое-как.
А вот Люда Дубинина вряд ли.
У нее произошла общая деформация грудной клетки и ее травмы были более сильными.
- Когда Семена нашли в ручье, то на его груди был фотоаппарат.
Достаточно тяжелая вещь по тем временам.
Мог ли он идти с такими травмами и с фотоаппаратом на шее?
- Вряд ли фотоаппарат мешал ему передвигаться.
Но мы не можем однозначно сказать, где он получил травму ребер.
Можно допустить такой вариант.
В ручье были найдены двое человек с травмами ребер и еще один с травмой черепа.
Поэтому нельзя исключить версию, что они выкопали пещеру в районе оврага, но снег обвалился и накрыл их.
Однако нам еще предстоит подробно разобрать характер травм ребер Семена.
Мы планируем провести более тщательную экспертизу скелета на основе фото- и видео материалов, которые были отсняты во время эксгумации.
Либо звоните по телефону: 8(495)637-64-97 (доб. 2291).
Скоро под перевалом Дятлова обнаружат секретный завод по производству химического оружия
Так предрекают наши корреспонденты, изучающие одну из тайн прошлого века
Вокруг загадочной трагедии на Северном Урале зимой 1959 года, когда погибли 9 туристов-лыжников, как и вокруг всякой громкой темы, мечется своя группа интернет-извращенцев.
Их забавляет делать всякие ложные вбросы по данной истории, а потом глядеть, как публика и даже иные СМИ обсуждают очередную глупость.
Уж сколько было «свидетелей, которые слышали от умирающего деда настоящую правду о гибели группы». (подробности)
Перевал Дятлова: Последний свидетель погибшей группы расскажет на детекторе лжи свою версию трагедии
В деле о смерти туристов в уральских горах по-прежнему остается немало странностей.
"Комсомолка" продолжает расследование загадочной истории «Комсомольская правда» и Первый канал уж давно ведут расследование этой трагедии.
Недавно в программе «На самом деле» мы развеяли одну из версий, которую выдвигали иные исследователи – что самый старший участник того похода Семен Золотарев остался в живых и уехал в Израиль.
Назывался конкретный человек, который якобы раньше был Семеном Золотаревым.
Этого человека привезли в студию, где и выяснилось, что к Семену Золотареву он никакого отношения не имеет.
Так одним мифом стало меньше. (подробности)
Еще больше материалов по теме: «ПЕРЕВАЛ ДЯТЛОВА»
Napisano 30 kwiecień 2018 - 22:21
Where did the stones come from?
Napisano 03 maj 2018 - 21:24
Napisano 05 maj 2018 - 22:51
There is inconsistency even about the date when the last 4 bodies were found.
Case file sheet 386 says they were found on May 4.
We have two telegrams saying this happened on May 5th which is supported by "Protocol of the location of corpses" (sheet 341) made on May 6th when representatives of the Prosecutor's Office and the Investigation Department were notified, so most probably the date is May 5th.
Napisano 07 maj 2018 - 23:21
You can ask questions here or
join Dyatlov Pass Forum.
Napisano 08 maj 2018 - 21:30
Map of the ravine by Vladimir Borzenkov
Napisano 09 maj 2018 - 21:27
Lyudmila Dubinina (20)
Semyon Zolotaryov (37)
Alexander Kolevatov (24)
Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle (23)
Napisano 12 maj 2018 - 22:39
The pass has been called Dyatlov Pass ever since.
Napisano 15 maj 2018 - 21:33
The construction on the photo is a dam (плотина), which Colonel Ortyukov decided to build shortly after the first photo was taken and not long before they found the last four bodies.
The current in the creek was very strong and the rescuers had fears that the still missing last four bodies, if they lie in a creek, they can be rushed down to the fourth tributary of the Lozva river.
This dam was built by rescuers at the place, where the creek flows into the fourth tributary of Lozva river.
bottom row: Colonel Ortyukov, Delevich and Fyodorov
2nd row: Askinadzi, Suvorov, after next Kuzminov
top: the "lazy dog breeder" in Askinadzi's memoir "We are the last of the Mohicans ..."
Napisano 16 maj 2018 - 21:45
Oleg Nikolaevich Arhipov, author of a monograph on forensic experts in the Dyatlov case, claims to have found a memo dating 15.II.1959 which testifies of the fact that Vladimir Ivanovich Korotaev, the first investigator of Dyatlov case was in cahoots with Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov, the Prosecutor in the criminal case to cover the fact that they knew of the death of the students (15.II.1959) before they were found (27.II.1959).
"Vladimir Ivanovich (Korotaev - ed. note)
I am called to report to the deputy prosecutor of the RSFSR (Leonid Ivanovich Urakov - ed. note) in the criminal case of the death of the tourists, and I will be in Sverdlovsk for 2-3 days, so I ask you to look and see that everything is in order.
Please take care of the people court claims, If you send cases for further investigation or acquittal, appeal against the verdict also in a 5-day period.
All cases are true.
In addition, on the instructions of the regional prosecutor to interrogate the chief of the logging branch of Vizhay Hakimov whether the leader of the tourist group (who died) said that they will return to Vizhay not on 12.II. 59 but 15.II.59.
This needs to be done faster.
I'll call you from Sverdlovsk.
15.II.59 (crossed out) 16.II.59.
When Reeba is sentenced, if acquitted or the case is sent for further investigation, you must file a contest.
Greetings Procecutor Tempalov. 15.II.59"
Komsomolskaya Pravda article https://www.ul.kp.ru.../26829/3869201/ goes further on about the authenticity of the note and if there could be a typo - the month of march III to have been misspelled as II.
We know that the case is dating 6.II. because the same typo allegedly occur on Vasiliy Popov's testimony.
Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov, the Prosecutor in the criminal case
Vladimir Ivanovich Korotaev, the first investigator of Dyatlov case
Vladimir Ivanovich (Korotaev - ed. note)
I am called to report to the deputy prosecutor of the RSFSR (Leonid Ivanovich Urakov - ed. note) in the criminal case of the death of the tourists, and I will be in Sverdlovsk for 2-3 days, so I ask you to look and see that everything is in order. Please take care of the people court claims, If you send cases for further investigation or acquittal, appeal against the verdict also in a 5-day period. All cases are true.
In addition, on the instructions of the regional prosecutor to interrogate the chief of the logging branch of Vizhay Hakimov
whether the leader of the tourist group (who died) said that they will return to Vizhay not on 12.II. 59 but 15.II.59.
This needs to be done faster. I'll call you from Sverdlovsk.
15.II.59 (crossed out) 16.II.59. When Reeba is sentenced, if acquitted or the case is sent for further investigation, you must file a contest.
Greetings Procecutor Tempalov.
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